28 April 2007

Albania and the Perils of the 21st Century

Another article on religion in Albania appeared yesterday. Patrick Poole, writing in the American Thinker, argues that Saudi funding for the construction of mosques and the training of imams is a threat to Albania, since these mosques and imams reflect the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam dominant in Saudi Arabia.

40 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

His article seems to exaggerate many events that occurred. However the fear is true. The new era of democracy does not stop religious fundamentalists from spreading their hate, if we were to do so I'm sure we would be seen in negative light by the EU. I'm more than certain however that they don't pose very much a problem. The vast majority of Albanians are of mixed religion or have friends who may not have the same religious beliefs as them. As a society we have high values for family and friends. I doubt a fundamentalist could teach an Albanian that his mother who may be Catholic or his friend who may be Orthodox would be an infidel to be killed.

5:42 pm  
Anonymous nick said...

WOW. OMG. After reading that article I felt sick to my stomach and couln't write anything for hours. Only now I felt like adding a comment or two. I felt like throwing up because sadly the author wasn't far from the trueth. There's neighborhoods in Tirana now where young men grow beards and young women wear scarfs. This is a European country. Albanians are European people, descendants of Kastriot. THe political parties are too busy trying to divide the few goodies left in the country between them. Whereas the Arabs have since 1991 constantly developed and masterfully crafted their plan. Asians from nature have long term plans and are contented to just convert a few at the moment. They are just thinking of the next generation who may not care what the religious beliefs of his parents/friends or anyone elses are.

This has to stop and its very easy to do. Just ask the mosque owners where the money is coming from. Trace the money and most likely someone in the most wanted list of an American secret service agency is going to appear. THen, you can easily demolish the mosques based on the fact that they were built with dubious sums.

This must be done before its too late, otherwise Albania will be a country of 1000 mosques....a shame for all of us who boast mother Teresa and Gjergj Kastrioti and think of ourselves as European. Why wouldnt we do it? What the hell are we protecting? 5 centuries of backwardness?

7:46 pm  
Anonymous Davidi said...

The author of that article is correct sadly. There is a fear of terrorists gaining ground in Albania. I seriously hope they don't...

And our government does not have the balls to even pull us out of that Islamic Conference Organization, which we joined just after the collapse of communism. I mean come on, even Bosnia who has more real Muslims than Albania is just an observer there. While we, Albania, are a full fledged member. :(

8:19 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

surprising how other Albanians are blinf to this! I tell them whenever I can but they don't accept it. What to do?

12:19 am  
Blogger strangeMAN said...

I think the key is poverty. Where there is poverty, you can get people to believe, say and do whatever you want. Govt. can't help it. Poverty can turn normal people into almost everything.

12:20 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"There's neighborhoods in Tirana now where young men grow beards and young women wear scarfs. "

IT wasn't like this till 2001. Mushroom moswoes popped out everywhere in the 90s, but it was no big deal because they were empty, and now hot headed unmployed young men go there!

Oh no, it took E. Hoxha repression to get rid of these things in the 20th century, and now they cam eback. it will take us houndreds of years of stuggle to get rid of them again!

12:22 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Govt. can't help it. "

not true. Instead of pressuring orthodox christians for something they have not done, they can keep an eye on these terrorrists.

I dont' know why young men like radical islam. Maybe it makes them feel more manly when they have achieved nothing. I have noticed as a woman a rise in islam in Albanian young men. Even the guys at peshkupauje.com are very radical and hang out with middle eastern "friends" of their age.

12:25 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

nick,
I totally agree with you, but try tellign that to young Alb guys. I have been called all kinds of epithets after doing it.

12:28 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The vast majority of Albanians are of mixed religion or have friends who may not have the same religious beliefs as them. As a society we have high values for family and friends. I doubt a fundamentalist could teach an Albanian that his mother who may be Catholic or his friend who may be Orthodox would be an infidel to be killed. "

It has already happened. Friendshpis have broken over it already.

12:29 am  
Blogger strangeMAN said...

You don't get it. Albanian govt is very very weak. It does not have the resources to fight back, even if it had the will. There are areas in the country in which the state is not present at all through its authorities (especially in the poorest and remote regions both in the north and the south). How can they do anything if they do not have control. People here don't have the chance to have ideals. They can't afford them. So you can buy pretty much anyone.

12:34 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so, they are poor elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Why don't they get 1000 mosque and wahhabis per day?

say the truth, that Albanian man love islam!

12:44 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"A recent Washington Post article by Mary Jordan notes the uproar by Muslims last year when a statue of Mother Theresa - undoubtedly the most famous Albanian ever - was built in Shkoder, a city that is predominantly Christian."

Look at where it has come to, the discrimination of christians in Albania! We went back 100 years immediately when ignorance and stupidity broght by the east ruled our minds and the wahhabis ruled the land.

Just say a big JO to them! Tell your family as well to avoid their ideologies anywhere.

Being silent is the worst thing that can happen.

12:47 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mjaft could organize a protest right in frint of these wahabbi centres with beards and disgusting hijabs. They could gather young people to french kiss their girlfriend/boyfriends right there for hours.

My self, i'll keep my mini skirt as mini as a can and walk by those centres as often as i can.

Or we could complain about the imam's singing that bothers the residential buildings around.

Why do they sing in arabic? All other religions in Albania have texts in Albanian.

12:55 am  
Blogger strangeMAN said...

You are oversimplifying. No one loves nothing without a reason. It seems to me that you don't have e clear idea of how things are in the region and in Albania in particular.
Example: In Serbia it is about ultranationalism, not islam, but the mechanism is the same.

1:04 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yet you all forget that Greek Orthodoxy is a much bigger threat to Albanians than Wahabbis. Visit Himara...any of you and you will see.

1:36 am  
Blogger An Albanian in NoVA said...

Come on guys. I think you're going over board here. My parents come from to different religions, and as much as it pains me to see men with their beards and women with their head scarfs, I don't think it is a real threat. Unfortunately, there are strict followers of religion in every country, including Albania. While mainstream Christianity doesn't require you to grow a beard and cover your face, Islam does. It's that simple. They're not any different from their Christian counterparts who go to church every Sunday. And don't forget that they are a very small minority.
With that said, I wouldn't mind a law that bans head scarfs like the one King Zog enforced in the past, or getting all Islamic (and Christian for that matter) foreign organizations kicked out of the country. Religion doesn't require guidance from more religious people. It's a personal, spiritual matter so no outside help is needed.

1:47 am  
Blogger D X said...

You know how Albanians say - and probably others do too - the strong vinegar ruins it's own container. Now all of you that are irreversibly plagued by fits of epileptic, although grotesque rage, convulsions of vomiting, diarrhea and cataleptic thinking, over production of bile, record breaking high blood pressure, heart and kidney half-failures, other mental pathologies...but precisely, by a sharp, implacable, overpowering impotence and the gnawing diluted hubris that cames with it...I will say to you dejected, miserable wretches what the American slug Pat Robertson said "many have tried and all have failed, Islam seem to be indestructible"...and I will add something of my own, again as Albanians we say " dy duar për një kokë", we survived the communists and you that are mere shadows of yourselves - although I recognize your pathetic and humorous suffering - you are but so, shadows, and very bad at that. Have fun (if you can).

3:12 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This article is indeed very sick, but it does not sicken me because the barbarians (read Arabs here) are at the gate, but because of the amazing racism present in the article and mirrored in Albania.
I have a few points:
Why is it a threat the building of a mosque, when the same occurs with Orthodox and Catholic Churches? There are new churches in all Albanian cities, and Tirana already has new Catholic Church and is building a new Orthodox one now. All these from foreign money, yet it is not a threat to anybody unless Arabs finance it.

What do the terms of Gjergj Kastrioti and Nen Tereza mean. Why does the writer says long life to the Sons of Scanderberg. First someone who uses such terminology souds somewhat Hitlerian, at least in methods, and second it makes up history because at the time of Scanderberg religious conceptions were not the same. It also assumes that it is wrong to be muslim in Albania. I mean the writer celebrates Scanderberg for fighting Islam, not as a secular national hero.

Third, what is the argument that we are European. I do not beleive in culture with cut borders, I think proximity plays a larger role and I will always believe that Albanian and Greece are more similar culturally to Egypt, Israel and Turkey than Scotland, England and Denmark. I also think it shows a somewhat elitist/racist viewpoint and I see this type of statements and responses as no different than Le Pen's speeches on immigrants.

6:02 pm  
Anonymous Sokol said...

I don't see construction of mosques as a threat to Albanian identity or its position and perception in Europe. Taking a simplistic view of the issue is dangerously wrong.

I've seen wahabbis in Albania but not Albanian wahabbis, and I have not heard of any Albanian terrorist, except in the Serbian, Macedonian, and Montenegrin news reports. A Moslem Albanian is as much an Albanian as an R.C. Albanian or E.O. Albanian or Albanian atheist.

The real problem for Albanians is becoming its underworld supported by individuals and groups of interest in the capital's political elite, including powerful officials in the parliament, government, prosecution, justice, law and order, customs, etc. That is a real concern!

10:04 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Yet you all forget that Greek Orthodoxy is a much bigger threat to Albanians than Wahabbis. "

you see the point it has come to. Now wahhabbis are better than orthodox, because orthodox people are always called Greek, a.k.a. "outsiders" by those who want to make Albania purely Muslim! I know Himara, the situation is the result of Albanians teasing Himariots.

12:49 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

alb in nova,
"I think you're going over board here. My parents come from to different religions, and as much as it pains me to see men with their beards and women with their head scarfs, I don't think it is a real threat."

Well it's jsut plain ugly, and i don't want to see that in my country. When i have children, i want them to grow up like i did, without the ugly sight. We don't need that. Remember how Paris used to be, and how it is destroyed now. It was the best city in the world, forward thinking, modern, fashionable women walking down the street, now it's
Somalia.
If they want to put scarves they can do it in their country, and not impose their disgusting ways in my home.
IT's liek a guest coming over at your place and showing you how they are better and hwo oyu shoudl behave, imposing their shrieks on minarets to my ears. Excuse me, but no i have a beautiful language i don't want to hear that. I want to walk down the street freely in my country.

12:54 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I mean the writer celebrates Scanderberg for fighting Islam, not as a secular national hero."

HE was turned into e secular hero later, but that's what he did, fighting Islam. I can't stand it that the shadow of the mosque falls on him from the east piercing him.
sorry Dx but there is no place for it in Europe where the building of the EU is in the shape of the cross and it used to be a monastery.

1:00 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dx,
because we don't like Bin Laden Ideology like you and pressure according to you we are "epileptic,vomit, bile, diarrhea, mental ...etc etc"

maybe you are arabic thinking and that's why you are insulting Albanians.
There is no place for non-Europeans in Europe for your own good. Look at history, all outsiders have suffered. The Jews, the gypsies. The most recent event is the shooting at Virginia Tech. The killer was mentioning Jesus in the videos just to justify himself cause he knew that he was wrong but he had tattos in arabic in his body.
You see Islam is a failed religion because it is not e religion, it is a way of life, the way of life of middle easteners and others that have nothing in common with Albanians. Now, those who are deperete to be European, the best continent on Earth(you know it!), want a foot in Europe. Instead of using their oil revenues to help build their societies, they want to come and live in Europe. They take advatange of Albanians situation, poverty, openess and kindness. But, we are not that dumb, it is less than a century since 28 November 1912, Independence Day. This time you will get the boot for good cause you are foolin no one. There is no room for these things in Albania anymore, we want to move forward and arabs+alll their dirty terrorrist supporters are being an obstacle.

1:09 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Third, what is the argument that we are European. I do not beleive in culture with cut borders"


Oh yeah, then you're not European. Everything is baout borders and land. The basic history of the world is about European wars. Why are we still fighting for borders in Kosovo?


"I think proximity plays a larger role and I will always believe that Albanian and Greece are more similar culturally to Egypt, Israel and Turkey than Scotland, England and Denmark."

Oh yeah, why don't we watch thier tv channels then? Why don't we dress like them? Greece like middle easteners? Tell that to a Greek if you dare and they'll slice you.


" I also think it shows a somewhat elitist/racist viewpoint and I see this type of statements and responses as no different than Le Pen's speeches on immigrants."

Yes, in Albania I am the elite and i'm tired of more than half a millenium of your islamic BS. I have my own race, my own blood, my own language, my own songs, my own ways and i don't want you to come here and to tell me who I am!

France is 100X better than Albania when it comes to migrants liek you, so don't bother coming here. They didn't go thourgh what we did during these past centuries and they became "nice" to muslims. They didn't know what they got themsleves into. Now i'm happy they are taking back their country.

1:18 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Indeed, that was my point when I spoke of racism earlier in the post and in Albania. Read what you guys have written and you will how much you sound like a wannabe "Western" Taliban. You talk about not wanting to see veils in my country, not to be imposed of veils, but you forget that there are human rights and certain people chose to wear a veil.
The worst thing is that you guys write this because you believe you are being progressive, little do you know that being progressive means being acceptive, not exclusive, understanding and not prejudiced. If you think you are more European by using racist discourse towards the Islamic world, then you should know that there is not much difference between you and Serbian nationalists, neo-nazis, or the KKK and that is certainly not the way that I want to see Albania, Europe or any other place.
Ultimately, I think that it reflects self-hate, and you should know that diversity in Europe is generally considered something to be proud of. In ALbania we have a reach mosaic of cultures, dialects, relligious affiliations, and it seems as if soon it is going to turn out into a monolithinc oppressive area under the pretext that the Arabs are coming. Not much different (in methods, maybe the passion and power is not as great) that when Hitler used to say the jews are coming.

1:36 am  
Blogger D X said...

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3:54 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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6:04 pm  
Blogger D X said...

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7:22 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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8:13 pm  
Blogger d said...

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9:49 pm  
Blogger our man said...

It's getting a little out of hand here guys. I'm not that keen on leaving some of the other stuff in, but at least it illustrates the range of attitudes. The last few posts, though, have gone too far.

10:10 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The worst thing is that you guys write this because you believe you are being progressive, little do you know that being progressive means being acceptive, not exclusive, understanding and not prejudiced. "

This is the typical Western stand towards Islam. Westeners think they are being progressive by accepting veils etc. IT's the opposite. They ar ebeing blind, because they are creating double standards. While Western women enjoy full rights, muslim immigrants treat their women as slaves, beat them up, tell them what to wear, what to do, what say, etc. How can you allow that to happen in your country.
Tolerant, open societies? Now look what happened with the bombers in the Uk. What about Scandinavian countries who are shifting to the right again? What about the elections in France against Islam? Fortunately they are seeing the threat and trying to stop it before someone else rules their country.
Westeners think they are being cool by accepting everything, but in Albania even though we are not as progressive in other areas, from more than half a millenium of Islam experience, we know very well where things go if you let them run out of hand.
I used to go to the Turkish college in Tirana when i was in highschool, and the teachers would grab my shirt and see what color my brassiere was. If it was black I had to go through detention. Excuse me but only muslims do these things. First of all no one has the right to see my undergarments, least of all my teachers, plus i'm a christian and no muslim should come to my country and tell me what to wear!
There are so many retarded memories from Turkish College.
This was just a real life little illustration. Now imagine what would happen if we "accepted" and "tolerated" more these people.

Hitler? I'm not even bothered when they mention him. It's ridiculous. When people go to Hitler or "racism", it means that they have run out of arguments.
Hitler committed suicide today, on the 30th of April, which happens to be my birthday. Maybe, I'm his reincarnation... ;)

Even Bin Laden is racist. His perosnal rule is to be only with white women. He only has white wives.

Someone above called arabs barbarians and i agree in the technical scientific term explained below. According to the Romans, there are many degrees of barbarians. The lowest is the society where everyone sleeps with everyone, even their family members. The most civilized are the marriages where there is only one husband and one wife and the legitimate child is coming from only these two. Now arabs are barbarians because they have many wives. It is a lack of ego, of character and personality. "Ego" in Greek means "I" or "me". It is singular persona.

I have nothing against the Jews. I actually admire them. I admire Germans, too. Their conflict was not Albanians' conflict. We loved both groups. We were just caught in the war.

There is no comparison with Serbs. Look at history, it's all about land. Even now, Serbs hold the north of Kosovo where the most important mines are. Kosovo has a mineral welath of more than $500 billion. It's all about natural resources. How was Yugoslavia built but with money from Trepca mines in Kosovo.


On the news today they were saying that the mosque beside Scanderbeg will be demolished because the head of mulsims in Albania sold it. On one hand, I feel sorry, bcause it was an old mosque, but then as the article shows, there are lots of new ones popping up everywhere anyway. SO, we don't need that old one on every postcard from Tirana representing Albania. Most importantly, there will be no Imams deafening Scanderbeg's right ear.

3:28 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Indeed, that is the typical Western response of being progressive and having double standards. I agree that it is a real danger and it can be seen often in the positive reviews that non-European works often receive even if they are horrible.

However, you talk about the obmbers in the Uk or the US and the first thing that one notices is that such event are out of history. Meaning that there is no past, they just occur because "they hate our freedom", "way of life" or whatever. But, I would look deeper in those examples, I would look at the Western expansion and at alienation. Moreover, I would look at the fact that 200 Spaniards bring so much tear to our eyes when they die (and a horrible event it was), and a couple of thousand Iraqis can be taken as granted, or should I say collateral damage. You should read Said's Orientalism to get an idea of how categorically ideas of difference and otherness are built and how such categories can lead to double standards which might include what you talk about (allowing oppression of women in the name of relativism), but also West's consistent ability to morally justify its expansion in and exploitation of the "other".

As for France, please do notm mention it, for it is progressive the poor France. They had a policy of being French is not about blood (like the Germans), but thanks to Voltaire and his buddies, it is about belief, belief in the rights and all that other positive stuff. Thus, the children in the colonies had to sing in their schools we are descendants of the Gauls, from Algeria to Martinique. But, how does it happen if we are all descendants of the Gauls, that some live in the villas and some live in the Ghettos, and how does it happen that there is a correlation between ethninc identification.
Now when I mention Hitler, I mean that there are similarities not as much in the content as in the method, style. They both use racist ,nationalist rhetoric where barbarians on the gates are portrayed as a threat to keep the group together and justify any immoral behavior (war for economic purposes, political etc). The Serbs also used such rhetoric and spoke of our historic place, birthplace, being stolen by the albanians, and trust me they think more of us as barbarians than we do of Arabs. Bin Laden might be using it too. That is not my point, to say that only the West is wrong, it is wrong, it is the same as saying any painting or movie by an African artist is great, because of how deeply it reflects their oral traditions (eh?). But whatever, time will tell.

5:52 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Look to be frank few people know my religion in Albania, and I dont know the religion of many of my friends, and not because we dont say it or pratice it but I never make friends according to religion. If someone does then he/she is a jerk and I neither wanna look at him/her nor speak with.
However I have noticed online a lot of disturbing things, and I must say that most of the extreme comments about religion and christians comes from Albanian Kosovars who believe that christians in Albania have the same mentality of Serbs or whatever. Go to youtube.com, search for "Islamic Albania", read the comments and if u don't get shocked then Im an alien. Thats what Ive noticed anyways. We the young people should fight this stupidity. I don't care if a young guy grows a beard and a girl puts a scarf: its their own decision. Do whatever u like its your own life and it does not affect mine. Thats how I see it and thats how the truth is. If there will be someone who will like to show some muscles out of religion be it muslim Albanian or Arab the rest of Albanians will show them the place. I know Albanians can, because more than anything else they love their own country, and as someone said we put much more importance to family, friendship rather than to the mosque or the church. Tell me who is going to listen tomorow to whom? Are u going to listen to an uneducated radical kid from some remote village, or to the educated ones who think differently? Who will u choose to listen to? Thats the choice and thats the solution and it is something u do individualy.
As for these articles, Ive started not to read them at all. I will be honest I read this a while ago, because its quite old, and then I saw some other 5 "authors", copy-pasting it with some slight changes and publish it again. The media today sucks thats what I think. If u wanna know how things are in a country buy a ticket, take a plane and go see it yourself.
I was in a party in London a few weeks ago, and amongst the people I spoke to there was a Jordanian guy as well. The idiot asked me if I was muslim. I said "No, but even if I was thats none of ur business". He answered: Well I know no Albanian who is no muslim. My answer was: "Well I know no Jordanian who is no terrorist".
As u may guess none of the answers is true. Theres only ignorant people who listen and talk through their a... rather than something else. So again, stop worrying.

7:47 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was in a party in London a few weeks ago, and amongst the people I spoke to there was a Jordanian guy as well. The idiot asked me if I was muslim. I said "No, but even if I was thats none of ur business". He answered: Well I know no Albanian who is no muslim. My answer was: "Well I know no Jordanian who is no terrorist".
As u may guess none of the answers is true. Theres only ignorant people who listen and talk through their a... rather than something else
-----------------------------------

Sweeet:) Alwyn, methinks it is better for things to get out of hand here than in real life. However, judging from the intesity of the tit-for-tat one would say that the 'puritans' will have a hard time in Albania. Perhaps we should ship them over to Plymouth Rock...what say ya DX?

9:41 pm  
Blogger D X said...

sure, so I can feed it to you!

12:59 am  
Anonymous An Albanian student: Son of Albanian Christian Orthodox father and an Albanian Muslim mother said...

Religion is the opium of the masses. Islam is the 'opium' of the region which created it. It was part of a political reform, a new system of life; something to help the Middle Eastern population to unite and survive. As for the Albanians it was imposed as a system above another established system; Christianity.
Albanians never did choose between the two as a nation but only as tribes and clans... and that's a stance few nations have taken in this world, probably the only one. Scanderbeg did indeed fight Islam, but do not forget that he grew up in the Sultan’s court as a Muslim and more importantly he is one of the most interesting and particular figures of European medieval leaders, so don’t take his as a point of reference. He is our national hero, so doesn’t use him on these debates... u will only serve the purposes of those who want us to separate as people on lines of religion.
My question is: Can Albanians afford to be still unconvinced and at the same time respectful of both religions - or are they going to be effected by international politics and the current global events? It’s an unnecessary question. People will eventually state their opinions, and as seen in this discussion, they will be very different. However I believe the more we talk about this, the more harm we do. The new Albanian generation is growing up with religion, the previous ones did not. Try to teach to your kids where do Albanian people stand in relation to religion, and try to teach them how much we have suffered because of not being united and faithful to our own race. Tell them how our ancestors served the Romans, the Byzantines, and The Turks and how only one man did unite us even though only for 25 years. Tell them this, and teach them respect for their own race independently from religion. We have the chance to be a precedent in the history of humanity, as an ethnicity which loves God independently from the colors that politics gives to it.
P.S Some people sound too poetical here. I have nothing against it, but I tend to dislike pathetic imitators of Shakespeare... so be yourselves and don't make people want to puke. Global pollution is doing enough harm already.

8:18 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess most westerners don't understand islam is a death cult started by a military general (Mohammad) as a way to take and hold territory. Once taken the locals are converted, driven out, or killed, leaving only Moslems, who are then used as the spearhead to spread to another neighboring area, and so on until there is nothing left toconquer. Very effective, and also totaly unacceptable to civilized people. Islam is slow war.

5:13 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hitler, The Mufti Of Jerusalem And Modern Islamo Nazism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU

This news report from Bayerischer Rundfunk explains in detail the cooperation between the Nazis and the Muslim Arab leaders during WW2.

It goes on to explain how high ranking heads of the SS fled to the Arab world and carried on their activities under the protection of leaders such as President Nasser and how modern Islam has adopted a Nazi style ideology of hate and conspiracy against the Jews.

12:37 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

More about Albania, you can find at Albanian Canadian League Information Service (ACLIS) www.albca.com/aclis

2:00 pm  

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